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Poll: Which reset method (stats/skill/class) would you prefer for ToS?
Restricted Reset: You have to spend a reasonable in-game currency to buy it or get it from Cash Shop.
Free reset!: Anytime, anywhere. Reset is just 1 click away.
Free for limited uses: per month, week, day, etc.
Quest-linked reset
Costs in-game money
No resets ever
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[Poll] Skill/Stat Reset discussion
#11
(04-29-2015, 11:43 AM)Dondex Calo Torralba Wrote: That wound make the game very easy dont you think? free resetting anytime you want is just op imo.

And that makes the game interesting if your character is more on pvp character than means you'll be bad at monster hunting and you would need leeching( bus ride in korea found in "The Gamer" Manhwa) to level up fast just to be a pvp character.

No, not at all, because the mobs could balanced with that in mind, especially with the incredible diversity of classes. I don't get how it's OP, it's just removing the need to level up multiple characters of the same classes/circles for different purposes. Nobody enjoyed trying to level up a FS priest in RO (unless you were playing with friends full time). This fixes that.

It doesn't make the game more interesting at all, that makes the game far less interesting and boring. Leeching isn't interesting, it's boring and a huge chore that detracts from the game's experience. You know what's interesting? Actually playing the game, doing quests, killing monsters, that kind of stuff. Not sitting AFK paying someone else to level you up while you alt tab or watch a movie or something else.

I don't know why people want leeching and having to sacrifice PvE for PvP. I really don't. It makes absolutely no sense to me... :/
Diablo 2 -> MapleStory -> Ragnarok Online -> FFXI -> La Tale -> Dragon Nest -> Diablo 3 -> Tree of Savior
İmageİmage

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#12
(04-29-2015, 10:49 AM)SOC Wrote: Leveling up multiple characters for PvE and PvP isn't good game design, and there's little point to it if you plan on using the same class/circle routes. That's why I think free resets is fine, especially in a game like this. Some bosses (especially late game) or dungeons will require different builds for that specific dungeon or boss: being denied the opportunity to participate in them because you built a different way is really stupid. Not being able to join a party because they want you to have these specific skills (that are usually boring but strong) and having to re-level a character like that is stupid. Besides, with free resets, you could just level up with skills that are good for leveling then switch later as you're high for something better. Being able to change freely would mean you could be prepared for any situation and build to counter your enemies. That's how good game design should work. Your commitment feeling should come from your class and circle choices, not your skill/stat builds.

I also imagine a lot of late game tanks for PvP/guild wars/end game bossing/dungeons will be very tanky with lots of crowd control/defensive buffs with very little damage. Having to level up with very little damage (and if you build any damage on a tank you'll be useless later since you wasted points/skills not being more tanky) is extremely boring, and often requires leeching. Any game that requires leeching isn't good game design.

Skill/stat point distribution is an illusion of customization. There are only a few optimal builds and you must use them to participate. This means you will have to commit from the beginning to them, and most of them will not be damage based. It isn't fun trying to level up characters who don't deal much damage. You'll see a lot of people selling leeching services if there aren't easy skill/stat resets.
You can argue all you want, but it's about as pointless as getting hot and bothered about made-up class ideas at this point.   Dodgy At least wait until cash shop skill/stat reset is confirmed before thinking about starting a petition to get rid of that and make it free (I would sign btw). But for the sake of argument, I guess I'll continue...

Now I'm not against free stat/skill reset because I don't want to fork over a ton of cash to be able to experiment with my characters. I'm just against the idea that it's "necessary" to enjoy the game if you didn't have stat/skill reset available on a whim.

Furthermore, skill reset/stat resets are not going to make one character more viable for competitive raid + competitive PVP. Some class choices are suited for one role more than the other to begin with... For instance, centurions are excellent for pve leveling. But do you really want to be bunched up during PVP? NO! It's just not practical having your character rendered useless just so one person can have leet autoattacks. You'll end up making multiple characters suited for either competitive raid or PVP anyway if that was your thing. If you're arguing for skill/stat resets to be available on a whim to excel in pvp, it would be difficult to make the case for those specialized for pve such as centurion, scout, oracle, and bokor. 

I just want to play my favorite class the way I want, and if people don't want to party with me because I don't have "x amount of stats and x amount of skill points invested in x skill" then I don't want to party with those elitist kiddies either. Play the game with the character you want without thinking about pointless things such as 'ingame competitiveness'. There are just more important things to do in life.  Cool
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#13
I think that PvP should be located on a different in-game spectrum, outside of PvE.

Say you have your favorite character all well thought out and built by following what you like most and that (s)he is located on the PvE spectrum of the game. You can visit the PvP part of the game anytime you want (Gladiator mode/ Arena / Competitive Mini Games / etc), but your character will start as a newbie there and will have to level up their PvP related abilities and those abilities will only be used inside the PvP spectrum of the game (and maybe you can only play against people that have roughly the same amount of victories as you do, or something along this line), thus the PvE players will not feel obligated to do PvP if they don't want to, and the PvP enthusiasts will just have to visit PvP more often and won't have to worry about PvE if they are not interested in that x3

Basically, resets might be useful, but why don't we invest into something different? Something that might just solve these matters for good? I bring that up because I don't see how can someone not want to party with a PvE minded character during PvE, well, maybe the person is just not open minded enough to accept playing together with certain character builds, but, if that's really the case, then that's when you try to party with different players I guess x)
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#14
(04-29-2015, 12:05 PM)SOC Wrote: No, not at all, because the mobs could balanced with that in mind, especially with the incredible diversity of classes. I don't get how it's OP, it's just removing the need to level up multiple characters of the same classes/circles for different purposes. Nobody enjoyed trying to level up a FS priest in RO (unless you were playing with friends full time). This fixes that.

It doesn't make the game more interesting at all, that makes the game far less interesting and boring. Leeching isn't interesting, it's boring and a huge chore that detracts from the game's experience. You know what's interesting? Actually playing the game, doing quests, killing monsters, that kind of stuff. Not sitting AFK paying someone else to level you up while you alt tab or watch a movie or something else.

I don't know why people want leeching and having to sacrifice PvE for PvP. I really don't. It makes absolutely no sense to me... :/

If you can reset your skills/stats anytime you want is already op you can just be any type of class you want and that makes the game easy. Resetting once in a while is good enough imo.
If you want a example here: lets have peltasta. When you have loner stats type of  peltasta and your friend(s) is inviting you to their party because you have swash buckling skill and they want you a lure n tank the enemies in their party,  since you have a little bit of vit you can just reset anytime you want to be an all out vit character to be their tank. Imo thats really op already to make your character any type of class.

Haha, there are even some people who doesnt like doing quests mostly pvp players.

Because there are no skill/stat reset in the game thats why they need leeching to make a pvp character without getting pve skills/stats.
The want of one affects others.
- Dondex
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#15
(04-29-2015, 12:36 PM)Oragura Wrote: I think that PvP should be located on a different in-game spectrum, outside of PvE.

Say you have your favorite character all well thought out and built by following what you like most and that (s)he is located on the PvE spectrum of the game. You can visit the PvP part of the game anytime you want (Gladiator mode/ Arena / Competitive Mini Games / etc), but your character will start as a newbie there and will have to level up their PvP related abilities and those abilities will only be used inside the PvP spectrum of the game (and maybe you can only play against people that have roughly the same amount of victories as you do, or something along this line), thus the PvE players will not feel obligated to do PvP if they don't want to, and the PvP enthusiasts will just have to visit PvP more often and won't have to worry about PvE if they are not interested in that x3

Basically, resets might be useful, but why don't we invest into something different? Something that might just solve these matters for good? I bring that up because I don't see how can someone not want to party with a PvE minded character during PvE, well, maybe the person is just not open minded enough to accept playing together with certain character builds, but, if that's really the case, then that's when you try to party with different players I guess x)

But that's no different from leveling up a separate character.  Onion Cry

Basically you're trying to have a catch all game for different niches of gamers, and that's a ridiculous task in itself.

Skyforge tried to rectify that by allowing you to switch between different classes depending on the situation. But the problem with that is that you're stuck playing the "optimal" character rather than the character that you really enjoy for the sake of competitiveness.

Blade & soul, vindictus, and elsword tried to get rid of all classifications and just make everyone DPS. The problem with that is that some players really like having specialized roles that was the hallmark of the olden days...

Tree of saviors sort of fits in the middle where they allow you to choose multiple classes for a single character. This will allow you to main in your favorite class, but still supplement your class with offensive or supportive "subclasses". The problem is that they heavily limit the class combinations you want to make which gives it the illusion of "freedom", and they also limit the amount of skillpoints you can have in a way where you can only max about half of your skills....  Angry
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#16
@SOC oh yeah in this game you dont have to do much of leeching if you want to create a pvp character there is exp badge or something that you can give it to your low level character and level it up faster like in Granado Espada.

and wonders if theres a class job exp badge or something (really dont know what to call that)
The want of one affects others.
- Dondex
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#17
I previously meant a different kind of levelling in PvP, what needs to prevail is player skill rather than character unlocked abilities. Character levels and equipment shouldn't matter (up to a point) when players compete, but, well, I haven't played the games mentioned by holmwood, so... Did not really understand what he meant :/

(Did in fact played Vindictus, but knew the game by the name of Mabinogi Heroes at that time, dropped it because there were many things that I disliked about it x3)

"Grinding" for character levels is one thing, but playing against another player for the sake of competition is a completely different thing, that's my point of view.
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#18
(04-29-2015, 12:51 PM)Dondex Calo Torralba Wrote: If you can reset your skills/stats anytime you want is already op you can just be any type of class you want and that makes the game easy. Resetting once in a while is good enough imo.
If you want a example here: lets have peltasta. When you have loner stats type of  peltasta and your friend(s) is inviting you to their party because you have swash buckling skill and they want you a lure n tank the enemies in their party,  since you have a little bit of vit you can just reset anytime you want to be an all out vit character to be their tank. Imo thats really op already to make your character any type of class.

Haha, there are even some people who doesnt like doing quests mostly pvp players.

Because there are no skill/stat reset in the game thats why they need leeching to make a pvp character without getting pve skills/stats.
Why is that OP? The game will very likely be designed so that if you aren't already a full vit Peltasta, you're useless, which means you'll have to level up as a 0 damage character which is not fun at all. Leeching is bad, it's not good or healthy for the game. Anything that detracts from YOU playing the game by killing stuff is bad game design. Being able to switch to what's best for the situation is good and healthy for the game. It will allow for a multiple variety of strategies necessary for killing bosses or PvP'ng. I'm fine for it being on a cooldown and not available during fights, though. THAT would be OP.
(04-29-2015, 01:16 PM)Dondex Calo Torralba Wrote: @SOC oh yeah in this game you dont have to do much of leeching if you want to create a pvp character there is exp badge or something that you can give it to your low level character and level it up faster like in Granado Espada.

and wonders if theres a class job exp badge or something (really dont know what to call that)
No one knows if these will stay in the game, or how much exactly they'll give, and if it'll even be enough to allow you to fully level 0 damage characters. I don't think this is the answer, but it certainly helps a little.
Diablo 2 -> MapleStory -> Ragnarok Online -> FFXI -> La Tale -> Dragon Nest -> Diablo 3 -> Tree of Savior
İmageİmage

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#19
(04-29-2015, 01:44 PM)SOC Wrote:
(04-29-2015, 12:51 PM)Dondex Calo Torralba Wrote: If you can reset your skills/stats anytime you want is already op you can just be any type of class you want and that makes the game easy. Resetting once in a while is good enough imo.
If you want a example here: lets have peltasta. When you have loner stats type of  peltasta and your friend(s) is inviting you to their party because you have swash buckling skill and they want you a lure n tank the enemies in their party,  since you have a little bit of vit you can just reset anytime you want to be an all out vit character to be their tank. Imo thats really op already to make your character any type of class.

Haha, there are even some people who doesnt like doing quests mostly pvp players.

Because there are no skill/stat reset in the game thats why they need leeching to make a pvp character without getting pve skills/stats.
Why is that OP? The game will very likely be designed so that if you aren't already a full vit Peltasta, you're useless, which means you'll have to level up as a 0 damage character which is not fun at all. Leeching is bad, it's not good or healthy for the game. Anything that detracts from YOU playing the game by killing stuff is bad game design. Being able to switch to what's best for the situation is good and healthy for the game. It will allow for a multiple variety of strategies necessary for killing bosses or PvP'ng. I'm fine for it being on a cooldown and not available during fights, though. THAT would be OP.

(04-29-2015, 01:16 PM)Dondex Calo Torralba Wrote: @SOC oh yeah in this game you dont have to do much of leeching if you want to create a pvp character there is exp badge or something that you can give it to your low level character and level it up faster like in Granado Espada.

and wonders if theres a class job exp badge or something (really dont know what to call that)
No one knows if these will stay in the game, or how much exactly they'll give, and if it'll even be enough to allow you to fully level 0 damage characters. I don't think this is the answer, but it certainly helps a little.

In my opinion, the more practical way of doing what you're proposing is to just get rid of the stats system and focus mainly on gear and crafting... or at least minimize the importance of stats in terms of attack and defense. That way you can have gear that specifically helps you for pvp and gear that specifically helps you for pve. This isn't by all means a new system either. And it sure isn't as much of a hassle as resetting stats and memorizing how many points go into what.  It isn't going to fix the skills issue, of course. That is why I also think they should just get rid of skill points and just focus on upgrading skills with attributes. Why give players that many skill options but force players to forsake half of the available skills due to limited skill points?  Undecided
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#20
(04-29-2015, 01:44 PM)SOC Wrote: Why is that OP? The game will very likely be designed so that if you aren't already a full vit Peltasta, you're useless, which means you'll have to level up as a 0 damage character which is not fun at all. Leeching is bad, it's not good or healthy for the game. Anything that detracts from YOU playing the game by killing stuff is bad game design. Being able to switch to what's best for the situation is good and healthy for the game. It will allow for a multiple variety of strategies necessary for killing bosses or PvP'ng. I'm fine for it being on a cooldown and not available during fights, though. THAT would be OP.


No one knows if these will stay in the game, or how much exactly they'll give, and if it'll even be enough to allow you to fully level 0 damage characters. I don't think this is the answer, but it certainly helps a little.

why is it so OP? because you can just be a type of class you want makes the game "EASY". lol "useless" hahaha you have a weapon with a base damage and I think when you create a new character you already have a base stats so dont worry you wont level up as a 0 damage character. Leeching, I could say its good in any game because you dont want to repeat the story over and over again right? And yes being able to switch to what's "BEST" for the situation is good and healthy for the game yes I agree with that but its easy. Did you see Steparu's 2nd cbt preview? he said "As an experienced TOS Closed Beta Tester, the game still felt a bit too easy."  you still want the game more easier? tho maybe they will buff up the bosses in next cbt, its just maybe becuase most people was satisfied with it.

I believe it will.

And I will say sorry in advance that maybe were on a wrong topic discussing things.
The want of one affects others.
- Dondex
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