About guild concept

[Oragura]

A considerable amount of guilds in MMORPGs are usually treated by its members as a big party, a mean to an end. There are guilds that are developed around player(s) versus player(s) competitions, others are just plain bigger, but organized, parties that attempt the completion of player versus environment challenges, some are built having at its core the socialization aspects offered by the game genre, meaning that they enforce the practice of role playing sessions, the carrying out of debates and discussions regarding a multitude of subjects and even the creation and hosting of creative events that may or may not admit the participation of players that are not officially enlisted in the guild ranks and also there are those guilds more devoted to the economic department, guilds specialized in the gathering and manipulation of crafting materials and market operations.

So what about it?

GvG, PvP, PvE, RPG, 4fun, Events, Craft, etc guilds do seem to have suffered an unhealthy massification ever since I don't remember when. Basically anyone is allowed to create a guild for whatever purpose they desire to achieve as long as they invest a symbolic amount of in-game currency plus materials, thus culminating in the creation of thousands of guilds, thousands of passionless gatherings of players that end up wasting valuable interaction potential due to the severely lacking foundations of the modern overused guild creation system.

That's one of the many reasons that explain why there are solo players roaming around and why people have to search for guilds, because most guilds are not very good.

What if there was more to the guild system? Some of us already have contemplated systems that invite players to enlist themselves as citizens depending on which in-game region they consider to be most worthy of their while, with options to ascend in the politic power balance and gain access to influential positions inside the region hierarchy, thus granting the player access to the participation in varied departments such as becoming a town guard, a library researcher, the army general, a class tutor, the region's religious authority, the king's counselor, or even the very own king and whatnot.

Current guild organization resembles the formation of small scale entities that hold little to no impact in the game structure and I find that to be a little bit lacking in my opinion, because having your actions obligatorily hold not much significance end up incurring in the loss of interest in participating and playing the game over time. Well aware that there are players that see nothing wrong with today's guild system, because games are just meant to be fun, if you're not having fun don't play the game and yadda yadda, but that could also be seen as running away from the problem instead of attempting to face it head on...

Opened this thread intending to build healthy discussions around the matter, may we please learn from the point of view of each other?  

I will be so sad if no one answers  

[Quinoa]

I think it would be neat to have that sort of ranking system in a guild, but that's because I like more roleplay based stuff. I've played archeage and witnessed first hand one of the largest guilds on that game in action. I've seen that one guild composed of hundreds of players destroy smaller guilds. Anybody that crossed that guild was put on a hit list and they were constantly pked in unfair fights, it made progression for them tougher. Nowadays i think a guild system should be specific. Are you an army type guild, then you can register yourself as such where you can only battle other army guilds. Want to register a thieves guild? well certain perks come along with that such as better loot from dead players or ability to "steal" items from mobs. How about a passive guild where you can have as many people as you want but can't war. This sort of design would be a bit more fun to see, rather than the typical "create your own guild, biggest guild wins"

[ShiroOu]

I believe the main reason for the high number of guilds with a low number of players is because people prefer to play this way (myself included). For me joining a guild doesn't have to be about get the most influence, rewards or power, so as long as I find a group that has a few interests in common with me that's already enough to join a guild and hang out with 5~10 people while playing the game. And it's not like the current system prevents you from joining the big competitive guilds.

Also you are talking about the political/faction systems featured on a few games, which is something apart from the guild system itself in most of the cases.

[Celov]

Im my opinion, the problem of this guild divison is that people (in general) seek power represented in leadership (or influent positions), the only way to reach it. So, they much 'govern' or lead to their 'oligarchy'. This have a great and suitable word in Portuguese, which is the 'panela'. I don't know, I see these strict guilds in this way: they pretty much don't care about the others and the relation between leaders and members are as cold as ice.

Applied in a wider scenery (the game itself having political system), I played a game named The Aurora World (if I'm not mistaken lol). There are elections to be the Emperor. The same guild, the same people occupies all decision maker positions. Unfortunately, people want to be powerful in any way possible, turning out to be good or bad to the whole game. A game that gives power decision to people that affects politics/economy of a game is just a time-bomb to disaster.

Of course, there are exceptions and I was part of one in another game I played. About Quinoa's reply, this is one of the reasons that makes me quit a game: guilds imposing their power because of whatever reason. This breaks the entire sense of community in a game - or you join them, or they won't let you play/stalk you wherever you go.

Some guilds exists only for 4fun, which is not a bad thing. They are friends/close friends who want to spend their game time playing together and having fun. Some guilds are more focused on build a strong guild to compete by strenghtening their members (PvE-only, PvP/GvG-only, or any other kind of guild).

The fact is that any game need all these types of guilds. I have to disagree when you say that, creating thousands of guilds, there will be "thousands of passionless gatherings of players that end up wasting valuable interaction potential". Being a 5-members guild or 200-members guild, it doesn't affect interaction because they don't need to be in one guild to interact. Actually, that wouldn't sort well because, one way or another, people will quit these massive guilds because of interaction (of course, I'm generalizing). It also depends on people's goals: do they want to be powerful and in a top1 guild or do they just want to talk, to level up and have fun?

Besides positions, what else in guild system could enhance gameplay? I really can't think in alternatives. Is this system enough to keep people entertained? I don't visit MMORPG related websites/forums, but I've never seen people discussing about guild system. I'm not saying this discussion is invalid (it's super valid!), but my point of view is that people don't complain about it. It's more about 'p2w', 'engine', 'quest/grind', 'end content', etc. I think my way to think about this is a bit narrowed because of what I said above, so if anyone understands/sees in various perspectives, it would be nice to read your thoughts. <3 (feeling like Psycho Mantis now. lol)

[SteelCrow]

You are getting into the realm of creating alternate realities.  That is the goal of immersive gaming, and it is awesome, but I think we need to upgrade our communications capabilities to at least make massive multiplay feel natural.  Text is insufficient, and even voice chat may not be enough.  In real life, we are all immersed in a flood of information so vast we actually have to filter it just to survive every day.

There is one big reason why each of those professions, guard, instructor, craftsman, farmer, general, etc are needed in real life, but not in MMOs.  It is because real life is always, always in a state of flux.  People eat because merely staying alive consumes energy.  What we eat needs to be grown, harvested, and processed into food.  We need hospitals because accidents take a lot of effort and time to repair.  We need governments because people are not able to always know what society needs from them.

A computer is a user-guided machine.  If it has no input, it will do nothing, essentially remaining in stasis.  A game or simulation built on a computer will always require developers to build it.  Unless a person has designed, built, and saved something new, the game will not change.  The day true constancy of change is achieved is the day we have true AI.

Perhaps I am getting ahead of myself.  We don't need to fully duplicate reality to create an immersive and varied experience.  However, players eventually come to understand what is expected of them in a game. They will choose what experience suits them the most, or quit the game.  We do not need the same things in a game as in real life.

Anyways, most people are not looking to do the same things they do in real life.  

[Oriceles]

First of all awesome thread.

(03-08-2015, 06:04 PM)Celov Wrote: Of course, there are exceptions and I was part of one in another game I played. About Quinoa's reply, this is one of the reasons that makes me quit a game: guilds imposing their power because of whatever reason. This breaks the entire sense of community in a game - or you join them, or they won't let you play/stalk you wherever you go.

I've heard of games like Tibia that if you don't speak portuguese they will find the way to kick you out of the server. They block your path and you have no choice but leave.

(03-08-2015, 06:04 PM)Celov Wrote: Some guilds exists only for 4fun, which is not a bad thing. They are friends/close friends who want to spend their game time playing together and having fun. Some guilds are more focused on build a strong guild to compete by strenghtening their members (PvE-only, PvP/GvG-only, or any other kind of guild).

Fun to say the bests guilds I've been are 2. The first one was my first Mu Online guild it was based with members of the Cyber Café that I used to visit when I was a kid, so it was always a lan party. The second one my current guild on Tower of Savior, they are full competitive between members which make it fun, they post gameplay videos, guides, and we have a private Facebook group to all those stuff, also a chatroom 24/7 to discuss everything. We are #4 right now on the international version of the game.

(03-08-2015, 06:04 PM)Celov Wrote: Besides positions, what else in guild system could enhance gameplay? I really can't think in alternatives. Is this system enough to keep people entertained? I don't visit MMORPG related websites/forums, but I've never seen people discussing about guild system.

In Tower of Savior we have "the black hole" a special place that holds stages that are available only to guild members, you must do guild missions everyday to access to the black hole stages where you can farm rare materials. Guild missions and benefits could enhance the guild systems rather than just allowing you to be on a ranking or have a % boost of gold an exp like must games do.

(03-08-2015, 06:12 PM)SteelCrow Wrote: You are getting into the realm of creating alternate realities.  That is the goal of immersive gaming, and it is awesome, but I think we need to upgrade our communications capabilities to at least make massive multiplay feel natural.  Text is insufficient, and even voice chat may not be enough.  In real life, we are all immersed in a flood of information so vast we actually have to filter it just to survive every day.

Yeah we need full dive technology like Sword Art Online please. Or eventually hope that Oculus rift turns in to that hahaha.

Talking about Anime. Log Horizon and Fairy Tail display much of what we want of a guild on a fantasy setting, and must of that is what I pointed on guild missions.

Anyway I think one of the problems that comes up with guild interaction is that thousands of guilds don't have a goal. Leaders are not inspiring or don't want to really interact with members at all, just have a guild and take benefits of what that offers. Still you can find dedicated guild with huge websites and even their own forums where they behave like a family.

[Celov]

(03-08-2015, 08:10 PM)Oriceles Wrote: First of all awesome thread.

(03-08-2015, 06:04 PM)Celov Wrote: Of course, there are exceptions and I was part of one in another game I played. About Quinoa's reply, this is one of the reasons that makes me quit a game: guilds imposing their power because of whatever reason. This breaks the entire sense of community in a game - or you join them, or they won't let you play/stalk you wherever you go.

I've heard of games like Tibia that if you don't speak portuguese they will find the way to kick you out of the server. They block your path and you have no choice but leave.

(03-08-2015, 06:04 PM)Celov Wrote: Some guilds exists only for 4fun, which is not a bad thing. They are friends/close friends who want to spend their game time playing together and having fun. Some guilds are more focused on build a strong guild to compete by strenghtening their members (PvE-only, PvP/GvG-only, or any other kind of guild).

Fun to say the bests guilds I've been are 2. The first one was my first Mu Online guild it was based with members of the Cyber Café that I used to visit when I was a kid, so it was always a lan party. The second one my current guild on Tower of Savior, they are full competitive between members which make it fun, they post gameplay videos, guides, and we have a private Facebook group to all those stuff, also a chatroom 24/7 to discuss everything. We are #4 right now on the international version of the game.

(03-08-2015, 06:04 PM)Celov Wrote: Besides positions, what else in guild system could enhance gameplay? I really can't think in alternatives. Is this system enough to keep people entertained? I don't visit MMORPG related websites/forums, but I've never seen people discussing about guild system.

In Tower of Savior we have "the black hole" a special place that holds stages that are available only to guild members, you must do guild missions everyday to access to the black hole stages where you can farm rare materials. Guild missions and benefits could enhance the guild systems rather than just allowing you to be on a ranking or have a % boost of gold an exp like must games do.

(03-08-2015, 06:12 PM)SteelCrow Wrote: You are getting into the realm of creating alternate realities.  That is the goal of immersive gaming, and it is awesome, but I think we need to upgrade our communications capabilities to at least make massive multiplay feel natural.  Text is insufficient, and even voice chat may not be enough.  In real life, we are all immersed in a flood of information so vast we actually have to filter it just to survive every day.

Yeah we need full dive technology like Sword Art Online please. Or eventually hope that Oculus rift turns in to that hahaha.

Talking about Anime. Log Horizon and Fairy Tail display much of what we want of a guild on a fantasy setting, and must of that is what I pointed on guild missions.

Anyway I think one of the problems that comes up with guild interaction is that thousands of guilds don't have a goal. Leaders are not inspiring or don't want to really interact with members at all, just have a guild and take benefits of what that offers. Still you can find dedicated guild with huge websites and even their own forums where they behave like a family.

About Tibia, that's bad. lol ... I never played it but I know some guilds tend to 'hunt' people, doing exactly what you said.

My guild experience was similar to yours. We had a chatroom 24/7, we were competitive by having the best equipments and pvp tactics, we also helped new people to learn about the game (their classes) and farm their equips...And we also encouraged crafting, which was a sweet part for those who had the money and time to craft. 

As you said, guild missions should give something more. Guild missions in the game I playes was just to give Guild Fame, which has a cap. Once it hits the cap, missions are useless and you don't have much anything to do than join PvP/GvG, farm equips and talk to people. Also, there are easier and faster ways to farm guild fame there, but that's not the case.

[Zeroaff]

To make Guild System interesting?
Guild storage/stock for selling or forge.
Farm rare items from difficult dungeons.
Special quest to guilds.


Think this insufficient and basic, i like difficult access areas, require party and equips.
I don´t have any idea to make more benefits(fun/resources/other) to stay in guild.

[Ian Danarko]

Unless we're talking about very far in the future technology (full dive game), this concept for system won't make any sense... (and i'm not sure how many centuries before full dive games can be achieved since there is just so many way to abuse it for crime and such)

[Oriceles]

(03-09-2015, 05:14 AM)Ian Danarko Wrote: Unless we're talking about very far in the future technology (full dive game), this concept for system won't make any sense... (and i'm not sure how many centuries before full dive games can be achieved since there is just so many way to abuse it for crime and such)

If we ever have the open technology for that it will be packed and sold just before any law and regulation comes out. That is how technology has always worked. After that you will see all the weird crimes happening and your local congressman researching like crazy about how make an effective law about this. As for technical details, systems will exists since still we are talking about simulation and how information is handled.

Now lets stay on topic.